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Episode 200: History (spoilers)

Group 1 Group 2 Group 3 Group 4 DRP holy crap!

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#61
JadziaGrace

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3) I'm not actively assuming that Una and Brie are the the only two gay characters on the show. I'm actively talking about one gay character on the show and how I feel their ending went.

 

2) I didn't accuse Jason of stealing anything. I am voicing my concern that I, as I have said now multiple times, personally feel like the Daegon's sacrifice felt more natural and Brie's fell into a trope.
 

1) I didn't say that the show was pre-written, and just because a piece of media isn't pre-written doesn't mean that it can't fall into the traps of tropes both negative and positive one. Brie's sacrifice takes away any chance of her finishing out her days happy, regardless of what the past 100 eps said. I'm not going to sit here and say that y'all produced a bad piece of media, because I did enjoy it, but I'm going to call out what felt to me like a poor ending to a tragic character that falls into a trope.

Also it feels like you got really defensive over my opinion, I do like the show and do look forward to the next arc. Just wanted to post my concern. 

Honestly, I got defensive because I felt your perspective was unfair. You call Brie a tragic character in your response right here, but you are upset and feel as though it were homophobic of the show (which is what the roots of the 'bury your dead' trope is, so that is the accusation here) because she died... tragically. I think that we've done a lot of great things with her character, and the idea that a gay character can't die because someone would view it as offensive does really bug me.

 

But I'll stop responding now. You are more than welcome to your opinions, and I'm sorry if I came off as too harsh. That wasn't my intent. I tend to try to be thorough in my responses here, and I think often that is taken as me trying to shut someone down. I just hope that you continue listening and enjoying the show. :)


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#62
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Honestly, I got defensive because I felt your perspective was unfair. You call Brie a tragic character in your response right here, but you are upset and feel as though it were homophobic of the show (which is what the roots of the 'bury your dead' trope is, so that is the accusation here) because she died... tragically. I think that we've done a lot of great things with her character, and the idea that a gay character can't die because someone would view it as offensive does really bug me.

 

But I'll stop responding now. You are more than welcome to your opinions, and I'm sorry if I came off as too harsh. That wasn't my intent. I tend to try to be thorough in my responses here, and I think often that is taken as me trying to shut someone down. I just hope that you continue listening and enjoying the show. :)

I agree that our perspective is different with your level of involvement in the show. Once again I didn't say that it or the show was homophobic or the reason she died was because she was gay, but that because she was a tragic character, because she sacrificed herself after Daegon had already stepped up, and then beacuse she was gay it fell into the trope.

Been listening since ep10 off and on and have said how I praise the show on social media and to friends and look forward to the next arc. Not losing a listener, just voicing a concern.


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#63
DSheeks

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I don't think her sexuality had anything to do with her choice, and she was for sure painted as a tragic figure from early on. Her sexuality comes into play for me after she replaces Daegon's choice and after everyone already saying their good byes to him. At that moment it felt like it was sacrificing her for no reason other than it had been a possible plot point leading up. Then because of her sexuality, again personally, it feels like it falls into the "bury your gays" trope. Daegon gets to have closure with his quest and the tragic, who happens to not be straight, character doesn't get to have a happy ending.

Leading up to the episode it seemed like it would be either Bri or Daegon to do the sacrifice and in the episode itself all arrows pointed to Daegon to me.

 

OK, thanks, that makes more sense to me. I was missing part of your point. I was 100% expecting Brie to be the one to die if they opened the seal (which I still think was a bad idea). During the episode when Daegon decided he was going to be the one to open the seal I thought that was an excellent twist which completely made sense because of what he thought needed to happen. Daegon's decision / speach and the G2 members saying their goodbyes was great drama, and it felt like the moment was cheated by the last minute switch to Brie (my opinion in this case; others may well disagree). Jason has explained Brie's mindset and how she came to the decision in the group chats or other content (quite possibly on Patreon; I don't recall where unfortunately) and that made sense, I just think if it was Daegon it would have been more dramatic and, quite frankly more tragic with yet another multi-character hit to G2.

 

As I've said elsewhere, the show isn't written ahead of time and the combination of input from the players and DM is what makes things compelling and fun to listen to, but it is fun to speculate on how things might have been different or what will happen next. I definitely didn't pick up on / think of the trope as you did, but thanks again for explaining it further.


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#64
Steve the Wiki Guy

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I think it's unfair to label anything that happened as having anything to do with gay or not. If Una never happened along to introduce Brie as gay, she could have done the same entire arc and sacrificed herself without it being a trope just because the listeners didn't know. Does it actually matter? Did it change anything? Did it have less impact? I say no to all of those. 

 

Yes, Daegon could have and some might argue should have taken the responsibility for it but the last second guilt trip by Acteronis probably really was the last straw. 

 

I was actually surprised it took Brie as long as it did to step up for Daegon but maybe until that last second she thought she could stand by and let him do it. 


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#65
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I think it's unfair to label anything that happened as having anything to do with gay or not. If Una never happened along to introduce Brie as gay, she could have done the same entire arc and sacrificed herself without it being a trope just because the listeners didn't know. Does it actually matter? Did it change anything? Did it have less impact? I say no to all of those. 

Edit: I'm going to bow out. Returning to this thread is starting to bum me out and I'd rather not continue that.

Look forward to the next arc and I'll be back in a few months probably.



#66
JasonDandR

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Stepping outside of the concern I had brought up and focusing this exclusively as I feel it is reductive. It does matter and does have impact when handling characters who are under represented in media.

Howdy!

I'm gonna tag in here as the person who played Brie for 5 years. 

I don't personally feel that the fact that Brie was gay had anything to do with the choices she made during the crossover or anything that got her there. Nothing about her sexuality was the catalyst for what happened. Also, I feel like labeling it as a "trope" is a touch demeaning for what that trope actually represents. Like Steve said, if Una hadn't gotten into a relationship with Brie, you (most likely) wouldn't even know she was gay in the first place. For instance, there have been a bunch of gay characters on the show. Some you know about, some you don't. I try to never make that the focus of their identity but just one facet that makes them a whole person. 

It's my way of trying to pay the proper respect to a situation and tackle it in the right way. It's also just something that would make sense in the world. I was talking to Bri today about the fact that there are even a couple of non-binary characters in the world (one of which the PC's have talked to before) and you wouldn't even know. Not because it isn't important to them but because it isn't their sole driving characteristic. I completely understand your concern and I want you to know that we take this seriously and don't toss out these things without thinking about them a LOT. If Brie hadn't died in that episode I feel like that would have been disrespectful. To remove the threat of death for a character simply because they're gay is to treat them differently than everyone else in the world. That just goes against the core value for me.

As for Brie being the one to open the seal. I feel like it was being hammered in pretty hard that she was not having a great life (very sadly) leading up to that. She was most likely going to die after the seal opened no matter what. However, in her head there were a few things going on. She thought that for a moment, things might work out and maybe she could live beyond the witches magic. She also wasn't even sure about opening the seal to begin with and didn't want to risk it if there the option of putting that off. Once it was decided though, it seemed selfish to her to let Daegon die after finally finding his people. And lastly, sometimes a character just doesn't know. That's the thing that sort of drives home that this isn't scripted. She just didn't what exactly to do right away in that situation. There didn't feel like there was a right answer no matter what she chose. 

Una wanted her to do it (and took every opportunity to try and convince her), Acteronis wanted her to do it and (seemingly) even Daegon wanted it. Eventually, it just didn't seem to make sense for her NOT to step up. 

That's just my explanation of her thoughts though. Not trying to convince you. 


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#67
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Howdy!

I'm gonna tag in here as the person who played Brie for 5 years. 

I don't personally feel that the fact that Brie was gay had anything to do with the choices she made during the crossover or anything that got her there. Nothing about her sexuality was the catalyst for what happened. Also, I feel like labeling it as a "trope" is a touch demeaning for what that trope actually represents. Like Steve said, if Una hadn't gotten into a relationship with Brie, you (most likely) wouldn't even know she was gay in the first place. For instance, there have been a bunch of gay characters on the show. Some you know about, some you don't. I try to never make that the focus of their identity but just one facet that makes them a whole person. 

It's my way of trying to pay the proper respect to a situation and tackle it in the right way. It's also just something that would make sense in the world. I was talking to Bri today about the fact that there are even a couple of non-binary characters in the world (one of which the PC's have talked to before) and you wouldn't even know. Not because it isn't important to them but because it isn't their sole driving characteristic. I completely understand your concern and I want you to know that we take this seriously and don't toss out these things without thinking about them a LOT. If Brie hadn't died in that episode I feel like that would have been disrespectful. To remove the threat of death for a character simply because they're gay is to treat them differently than everyone else in the world. That just goes against the core value for me.

As for Brie being the one to open the seal. I feel like it was being hammered in pretty hard that she was not having a great life (very sadly) leading up to that. She was most likely going to die after the seal opened no matter what. However, in her head there were a few things going on. She thought that for a moment, things might work out and maybe she could live beyond the witches magic. She also wasn't even sure about opening the seal to begin with and didn't want to risk it if there the option of putting that off. Once it was decided though, it seemed selfish to her to let Daegon die after finally finding his people. And lastly, sometimes a character just doesn't know. That's the thing that sort of drives home that this isn't scripted. She just didn't what exactly to do right away in that situation. There didn't feel like there was a right answer no matter what she chose. 

Una wanted her to do it (and took every opportunity to try and convince her), Acteronis wanted her to do it and (seemingly) even Daegon wanted it. Eventually, it just didn't seem to make sense for her NOT to step up. 

That's just my explanation of her thoughts though. Not trying to convince you. 


Okay so I saw this reply after I edited that I was bowing out and didn't have time then to reply.


It is obvious to me that what I am trying to come across with is not lining up with what people are responding with. I am not saying that her being not straight has anything to do with her character choices. I am not saying that she was sacrificed in the narrative because she was not straight.

I am saying that the way that scene shook out caused the ending to stumble into an upsetting trope that has to do with her not being straight.

That is the last thing I am saying on the topic publicly and will be bouncing now. If anyone has questions or wants to talk out where I am coming from anymore feel free to PM me.



#68
JasonDandR

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I meant to post in this thread weeks ago and say something but I wanted to thank everyone for their opinions on episode 200. We've been working really hard on things behind the scenes to make them better and all of this has really helped. So, thank you very much.
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That guy who writes for that show.


#69
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I'm more in line with Bri and Jason on this one. I think the ultimate goal of progressivism is to be able to have characters who happen to have facets such as 'gay' 'trans' or 'non-binary' and not be defined by that facet. I consider it very un-progressive to tout how nice one is to an 'other' that happens to be in vogue.

To that end, claiming that the show fell into an offensive trope, even if unintentionally, is unfairly putting weight behind a facet of a character that wasn't intended.


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#70
Bad Neighbor

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I don't want to dogpile on MrVertig0 because I don't think he meant what he said to come off the way it did. It's a sensitive subject and very difficult to broach without offending someone, intentionally or otherwise. That being said, I *think* I understand what he was getting at.

 

It sounds like you were just saying it felt to you like Brie sacrificing herself felt forced, whereas if it had been Daegon it would have been more natural and made more sense to the story. And because it was Brie, it not only felt forced but it also fell into that old "bury your gays" trope and that's unfortunate. I think that's all you were getting at, right?

 

If I'm wrong, then ignore me. If I'm close to what you were after, then please allow me to suggest a counterpoint: it doesn't really fall into the classic "bury your gays" trope because she's the only gay character who had a tragic end. In fact, Arc 1 ended with Una getting everything she wanted. My understanding is that, in order for it to fall under that trope, *no* gay character can have a happy ending. 

 

Brie's story is tragic pretty much from the beginning, but I think it's a stretch to say that any of it happened because she was gay any more than because of her hair color. 

 

 

Anyway, I'm mostly just posting to say that I think your initial point was lost in some misunderstanding.


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#71
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I don't want to dogpile on MrVertig0 because I don't think he meant what he said to come off the way it did. It's a sensitive subject and very difficult to broach without offending someone, intentionally or otherwise. That being said, I *think* I understand what he was getting at.

 

It sounds like you were just saying it felt to you like Brie sacrificing herself felt forced, whereas if it had been Daegon it would have been more natural and made more sense to the story. And because it was Brie, it not only felt forced but it also fell into that old "bury your gays" trope and that's unfortunate. I think that's all you were getting at, right?

 

If I'm wrong, then ignore me. If I'm close to what you were after, then please allow me to suggest a counterpoint: it doesn't really fall into the classic "bury your gays" trope because she's the only gay character who had a tragic end. In fact, Arc 1 ended with Una getting everything she wanted. My understanding is that, in order for it to fall under that trope, *no* gay character can have a happy ending. 

 

Brie's story is tragic pretty much from the beginning, but I think it's a stretch to say that any of it happened because she was gay any more than because of her hair color. 

 

 

Anyway, I'm mostly just posting to say that I think your initial point was lost in some misunderstanding.

 

I came back to delete my account for my own sake, but I wanted to take a moment before doing that to respond to you.

I wanted to thank you for how you responded, regardless of if we have opposing opinions. Yours and DSheeks were both very open to having a conversation without shutting down one side of the topic and I appreciate that.



#72
JasonDandR

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I came back to delete my account for my own sake, but I wanted to take a moment before doing that to respond to you.

I wanted to thank you for how you responded, regardless of if we have opposing opinions. Yours and DSheeks were both very open to having a conversation without shutting down one side of the topic and I appreciate that.

I'm sorry if you feel as though you were "shut down". I wanted to explain what my intent was with the character and tell you my side of things. I understand what you were saying but I respectfully disagreed with it falling into that specific trope. Trust me, we've talked about this a lot recently and take representation seriously. I know that's why Bri reached out to you privately just to ensure your feelings weren't hurt (if at all possible) and to explain that none of the disagreement was personal. 


Very sorry for any hurt feelings. 


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That guy who writes for that show.


#73
Bad Neighbor

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I came back to delete my account for my own sake, but I wanted to take a moment before doing that to respond to you.

I wanted to thank you for how you responded, regardless of if we have opposing opinions. Yours and DSheeks were both very open to having a conversation without shutting down one side of the topic and I appreciate that.

 

Sorry to see you go, man.



#74
DSheeks

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Sorry to see you go, man.

 

Agreed. There was a guy a couple of months ago that started a topic here saying he, "Loved the podcast" and then had some criticisms that I thought weren't at all out of line and could be taken constructively (and even echoed some made by a certain user quoted in this message  :) ). Several folks jumped on the comments and he hasn't posted anything on the forums since. I get the idea that forums can easily become ugly, but it's a shame if someone leaves feeling like they've been shut down. I'd had discussions here with MrVertig0 before that were very good. Hopefully he'll be back at some point.


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#75
JasonDandR

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Yeah, I don't feel as though anything got ugly in this particular conversation. It does suck that it ended up that way. Someone simply disagreeing with you doesn't equal being shut down. It's simply a difference of opinion and it's going to happen the more you talk to other people. 


That guy who writes for that show.






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