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Arc 1 Memories: Group 3


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#1
AtomicDeke

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First, a moment of silence for Persnickety.

 

....

 

This was a lot of fun to listen to, and there were a couple of things that stood out to me that I wanted to expand upon.

 

Bri raised the point that the world probably looks like shit to various PCs because they are adventurers with a unique perspective granted by their experience, much like police and their daily experience on the job. Conversely, the world probably didn't seem that bad to the general populace, who didn't have to deal with demons and all that other terrible horseshit on the regular. This was pointed out about G2 specifically, and it made me think about G2's experience with the wider world as opposed to G3's. Has G3 actually run into an environment where things are actively horrible for the citizenry in the area, beyond Overwatch? G4 got torn apart in Lochfort, where werewolves have been besieging the town for years, along with whatever other monstrosities exist in the Silver Glade. G1 has been to Aubrey with its vampire threat (as has G4, come to think of it) and Durnhollow while it was still under the slavers' sway (can't remember or find the name of the group). G2 survived the disaster that befell Onak'al, got savaged in the Silver Glade, fought the vampires in Aubrey, witnessed what the Chained God did to the eladrin, and spent a ton of time in Brightport where evil wizards and a house of assassins once and still hold sway, respectively. G3's been through Brightport, though only after House Darksbane became House Dragonkeep, and besides Overwatch, the most oppressive locale I can remember them visiting was Esterholt, where nonhumans aren't exactly on even footing with humans. Correct me if I'm wrong (I did check the wiki for a bit to make sure I wasn't speaking entirely out of my ass, but I freely admit that I could have missed some stuff), but it seems to me that the average person in a lot of areas have to or have had to deal with some truly heinous stuff, and G3 as a whole hasn't really seen a ton of that everyday fear and suffering outside of Overwatch, no?

 

I also liked the revisiting of Marrek's wolf-out and Calluna helping to calm him down. You can call it a cliche if you like, but I think there's a reason why it's a popular go-to in storytelling. If you invest that scene with the proper emotion and gravity that it deserves, then that payoff more than overcomes any sort of "Simpsons did it" reaction that might arise. Jasper and Mac did exactly that, and they can't get enough props for it.

 

I definitely felt for Bri a little bit when G3 went to the library, 'cause I've had moments like that with characters of my own. You head into a scenario that's perfectly tailor-made for your character, except that character is no longer in play, and you want to put your head through your desk. I liked how Thantos was played throughout that setting, but dude, that place was goddamn Disney for Jadzia.

 

And Orden. Oh, what could have been (and maybe could be in the next arc? Hopefully?). I think the lesson to be taken from him is to always have your knives out, ready to stick them in anything that crosses you. Hell, do so preemptively. You never know when someone might shank you for walking into their house and pissing on their rug, so you might as well beat them to the punch.

 

What about you guys? Anything in particular stand out to you, be it mentioned or unmentioned on the podcast?


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#2
JasonDandR

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Personally, I feel like it's a difference in styles and problem solving tactics. That's just me though. 

 

First, a moment of silence for Persnickety.

 

....

 

This was a lot of fun to listen to, and there were a couple of things that stood out to me that I wanted to expand upon.

 

Bri raised the point that the world probably looks like shit to various PCs because they are adventurers with a unique perspective granted by their experience, much like police and their daily experience on the job. Conversely, the world probably didn't seem that bad to the general populace, who didn't have to deal with demons and all that other terrible horseshit on the regular. This was pointed out about G2 specifically, and it made me think about G2's experience with the wider world as opposed to G3's. Has G3 actually run into an environment where things are actively horrible for the citizenry in the area, beyond Overwatch? G4 got torn apart in Lochfort, where werewolves have been besieging the town for years, along with whatever other monstrosities exist in the Silver Glade. G1 has been to Aubrey with its vampire threat (as has G4, come to think of it) and Durnhollow while it was still under the slavers' sway (can't remember or find the name of the group). G2 survived the disaster that befell Onak'al, got savaged in the Silver Glade, fought the vampires in Aubrey, witnessed what the Chained God did to the eladrin, and spent a ton of time in Brightport where evil wizards and a house of assassins once and still hold sway, respectively. G3's been through Brightport, though only after House Darksbane became House Dragonkeep, and besides Overwatch, the most oppressive locale I can remember them visiting was Esterholt, where nonhumans aren't exactly on even footing with humans. Correct me if I'm wrong (I did check the wiki for a bit to make sure I wasn't speaking entirely out of my ass, but I freely admit that I could have missed some stuff), but it seems to me that the average person in a lot of areas have to or have had to deal with some truly heinous stuff, and G3 as a whole hasn't really seen a ton of that everyday fear and suffering outside of Overwatch, no?

 

Personally, I feel like it's a difference in styles and problem solving tactics. That's just me though. 


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#3
AtomicDeke

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Personally, I feel like it's a difference in styles and problem solving tactics. That's just me though. 

 

 

 

No doubt, that's certainly at play. I just wonder whether G3 would have felt differently about releasing the gods, had they encountered a lot of the plights faced by the average person in places like Aubrey or Lochfort the way other groups did.


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#4
JadziaGrace

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No doubt, that's certainly at play. I just wonder whether G3 would have felt differently about releasing the gods, had they encountered a lot of the plights faced by the average person in places like Aubrey or Lochfort the way other groups did.

Everyone Thantos ever cared about was murdered and she found their bodies strewn across the only home she'd ever known in so many pieces they couldn't be identified.

 

She used this example as the reason all-powerful or even very-powerful beings shouldn't be released.

 

It was literally her only reason.


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#5
Ryn Hazard

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No doubt, that's certainly at play. I just wonder whether G3 would have felt differently about releasing the gods, had they encountered a lot of the plights faced by the average person in places like Aubrey or Lochfort the way other groups did.

 

Another thing to consider is that G3 has a lot more faith-based characters, in some way or another, than other groups. Not to say that the other groups don't but it's different for G3. G2 has a lot of faith PCs but I think it's more of "I believe in Khoury, who we were told is the Raven Queen" than "I believe in the Raven Queen." G3 on the other hand, has:

  • Orden (somewhat) who was actively searching for his god
  • Una and Marrek, who both have their own well-documented faith crises
  • Calluna, who believes in nature, not gods
  • Thantos, who doesn't believe in gods because what kind of god would let everyone she cared about be murdered like that.

 Because of that, I'm not sure if seeing the hardships that other people go through would sway anyone from their viewpoint.

 

So, I think in term of gods, G3 had a LOT more investment than the others. Yes, the fate of the world comes in to play, but when you boil it down, usually people are just selfish and want what is best for themselves and what they believe


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#6
ronjon

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Really good recap episode, bummed that Izzy couldn't make it, but I'd rather be hiking in New Zealand also!

 

My thoughts on their thoughts.

  • The Library series was amongst my favorites across all the groups for all of Arc 1.  It wasn't just for the reveals, but the history created a lot of depth and background on Therian history, really just added a lot of color.  Plus you know, Darmok!
  • I get that the cast likes bantering around with each other.  I don't mind it too much, but I do find it tedious if it goes on too long.  Given that there is about 2-3 hours per group per month, too much of that really slows down story progress.  
  • The same is true of combat, glad to hear about the positive changes to make that quicker and it's obvious the cast is ready.  I'm guessing this group recorded first, very soon after episode 200 recorded.  You can still hear the burn out from that combat.   
  • Calluna does need to get more involved.  They're funny.  I do hope they can get a series in the Silver Glade.

 

Probably due to where I started listening (around Episode 25 just before G3 started) group 3 was my favorite amongst all the groups.

  • Moral dilemmas early on
  • I understand Scott went a little overboard, but I really liked the Marcus v Group 3 series.
  • The Jadzia demon story line
  • Fie, Drow, Serif storyline
  • Angel of Death

All all so good


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#7
AtomicDeke

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Everyone Thantos ever cared about was murdered and she found their bodies strewn across the only home she'd ever known in so many pieces they couldn't be identified.

 

She used this example as the reason all-powerful or even very-powerful beings shouldn't be released.

 

It was literally her only reason.

 

I absolutely get that, and I didn't mean to imply that members of G3 haven't experienced a ton of personal suffering at the hands of some truly heinous creatures. I guess what I'm curious about is whether Thantos (and other members of G3) would feel differently if they had run into multiple environments where life is dangerous or at least generally shitty for all who live there? Areas where the presence of a god like Amaunator might change that state of being?

 

Another thing to consider is that G3 has a lot more faith-based characters, in some way or another, than other groups. Not to say that the other groups don't but it's different for G3. G2 has a lot of faith PCs but I think it's more of "I believe in Khoury, who we were told is the Raven Queen" than "I believe in the Raven Queen." G3 on the other hand, has:

  • Orden (somewhat) who was actively searching for his god
  • Una and Marrek, who both have their own well-documented faith crises
  • Calluna, who believes in nature, not gods
  • Thantos, who doesn't believe in gods because what kind of god would let everyone she cared about be murdered like that.

 Because of that, I'm not sure if seeing the hardships that other people go through would sway anyone from their viewpoint.

 

So, I think in term of gods, G3 had a LOT more investment than the others. Yes, the fate of the world comes in to play, but when you boil it down, usually people are just selfish and want what is best for themselves and what they believe

 

That casts things in a much darker light than the lens I've been using. I don't know, maybe I've been looking at different groups with the wrong sort of emotional calculus in mind. I was just curious if, given the empathy displayed in the past by various members of G3, a more personal experience with places like Aubrey and Lochfort might have changed that equation for some folks.



#8
JadziaGrace

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I absolutely get that, and I didn't mean to imply that members of G3 haven't experienced a ton of personal suffering at the hands of some truly heinous creatures. I guess what I'm curious about is whether Thantos (and other members of G3) would feel differently if they had run into multiple environments where life is dangerous or at least generally shitty for all who live there? Areas where the presence of a god like Amaunator might change that state of being?

I can't speak for any other characters, but for Thantos, that doesn't really apply, because outside of the El'lar (where that really awful thing happened) she was never a part of any 'society'. She's always been isolated. The same could also pertain to Jadzia, given the Darmock thing, but since being freed of him she has mostly been in 'good' areas like Overwatch and Esterholt (if you go as far as to say Overwatch was a 'good' place to live, which is debatable, but I mean no where close to Lochfort). That said, I don't think many arguments were 'things are fine as they are'. No one was saying that. The argument was 'this could all be so much worse and we don't know what will happen'.


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#9
MichaelJ

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I absolutely get that, and I didn't mean to imply that members of G3 haven't experienced a ton of personal suffering at the hands of some truly heinous creatures. I guess what I'm curious about is whether Thantos (and other members of G3) would feel differently if they had run into multiple environments where life is dangerous or at least generally shitty for all who live there? Areas where the presence of a god like Amaunator might change that state of being?

If you'll take a listen to the "Living in Theria" series on the D&R Patreon account (at the $10 per month level), there's a series of episodes spotlighting the gods of Theria. And in it, you'll hear Jason explain that when a god dies (for whatever reason), a replacement god gets tapped for that vacant position from among the mortals living on Theria. And gods can sometimes go wrong depending on the person that gets tapped to embody that god. He even goes on to explain that this has happened before.

 

So what you may be expecting from Amaunator, may NOT be what you get. In fact, considering the shifty, duplicitous, demented state of the Swamp Witch, I'd say that this particular god has gone VERY wrong. So I wouldn't be banking on Amaunator delivering much in the way of justice in Arc Two...vengeance, maybe...but not justice.

 

...The argument was 'this could all be so much worse and we don't know what will happen'.

I totally agree. In fact, I've come to think of it as "The Arc Two Uncertainty Principle."

Jason has also explained that once a person is elevated to godhood, they retain very little (if anything) of the personality that they had as a mortal, that the foundation is there, but that's about it. So the people that we knew and trusted as Khoury and Craig are gone. And they're not coming back. And we can't expect them to be the people they were--or to be in any way beholden to our favourite characters.

 

Or to put it another way, the Raven Queen feels that she owes Group Two something because she used to hang out with them when she was a mortal. Okay, if that's true...then why is Acteronus dead? Why didn't the Raven Queen restore him to a fully-healed human body? The answer is: because that's not Khoury.

 

I think it was absolutely despicable that Una was willing to coerce her lover into suicide to get what she wanted. (And man, I'm so bummed that Izzy couldn't be here to talk about it. But I'm even more bummed that she wasn't here to discuss my all-time favourite D&R moment--the crit miss.). I don't think it would have been any better if she had tried to talk one of the other psions into doing it, but she was actively manipulating Brie into killing herself. And what frustrates me the most about that is that Una probably doesn't feel that she did anything wrong. In fact, I think she said at one point that she and Brie will be together in the afterlife, so it'll be alright in the end anyway.

 

But wait a minute. When Group Three was in the demon library, didn't Jason say that the soul of the psion who opened the gate would be permanently destroyed in the process? Maybe I'm remembering that wrong, but I could swear that was what he said. Una wasn't there for that part, but I'm sure someone would have filled her in on that essential detail.

 

Personally, I think that the fate of the world was left in the hands of three small groups people: 1) the folks who had a personal agenda and thought that the gods would "do them a solid" for bringing them back, 2) a handful of religious fanatics (always safe to put your life in their hands, right?), and 3) the few remaining folks who were outnumbered and outgunned by people they loved and didn't want to fight. I think that releasing the gods was a huge mistake. But we'll just have to wait and see.


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#10
ronjon

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....

I think it was absolutely despicable that Una was willing to coerce her lover into suicide to get what she wanted. (And man, I'm so bummed that Izzy couldn't be here to talk about it. But I'm even more bummed that she wasn't here to discuss my all-time favourite D&R moment--the crit miss.). I don't think it would have been any better if she had tried to talk one of the other psions into doing it, but she was actively manipulating Brie into killing herself. And what frustrates me the most about that is that Una probably doesn't feel that she did anything wrong. In fact, I think she said at one point that she and Brie will be together in the afterlife, so it'll be alright in the end anyway.

.....

Personally, I think that the fate of the world was left in the hands of three small groups people: 1) the folks who had a personal agenda and thought that the gods would "do them a solid" for bringing them back, 2) a handful of religious fanatics (always safe to put your life in their hands, right?), and 3) the few remaining folks who were outnumbered and outgunned by people they loved and didn't want to fight. I think that releasing the gods was a huge mistake. But we'll just have to wait and see.

 

 

Una didn't coercie Brie, at least not at the end (let me know if something happened earlier, I don't remember it).  Una did not try and talk Brie out of it at the end, but that is pretty far from coercing.  Una also knew that Brie was living on borrowed time and going out in a blaze of glory is something Una would certainly approve of doing.

 

As for releasing the gods, that's going to be one of the big 'What Ifs' that gets debated forever.  It's safe to say that bad things will keep happening.  I think  releasing the gods will just make those bad things different bad things.  There should be some good things that come from releasing the gods as well.  Those good things will be different good things than what would have happened otherwise.   I'm generally of the mindset that in life, you make decisions and live with the good and bad consequences of those decisions.  Who can say how things would have been different if alternate decisions had been made.

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for releasing the gods...  I think that will always be the 


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#11
JasonDandR

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Una didn't coercie Brie, at least not at the end (let me know if something happened earlier, I don't remember it).  Una did not try and talk Brie out of it at the end, but that is pretty far from coercing.  Una also knew that Brie was living on borrowed time and going out in a blaze of glory is something Una would certainly approve of doing.

 

 

 

 

As for releasing the gods...  I think that will always be the 

Oh, Una ABSOLUELTY tried to talk Brie into doing what she did. 100%. 

 

When we get back up and running, these are the things I can't wait to talk about on "Extended Rest" (the show at the end of each month where we talk about stuff like this as a cast). Several times during the journey Una pulled Brie aside to try and persuade her to Una's side. It happened in the inn in Aldmoor, on the road a couple of times and it even opens episode 200 for G3. By the end, the only thing holding Brie back was that new connection with Thantos and seeing a lot of herself there. She was conflicted and didn't want to do what she did for many reasons. She also felt like she would be disappointing Una if she didn't though. 

 

As for Brie's soul.....well....you'll see.

 

In short, it was sort of an abusive relationship if you really pan back on it for a bit. 


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#12
DSheeks

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Two things. First, Una had a better offer. Dying psion from the middle of nowhere, or the arch mage of Uman'Yiro. Seems logical.

 

Second, it has always seemed quite odd to me that G2 and G3 were so secretive about the whole gods / demons being released event. That seemed like a rather enormous decision to make for a couple of adventuring groups, particularly where it just ended up being a majority rules decision amongst a few people at the end. Given the amount of abuse Malchus took with the Carter situation, I can only imagine what the consequences will be for the remaining G2 / G3 characters in arc 2.


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#13
MichaelJ

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Two things. First, Una had a better offer. Dying psion from the middle of nowhere, or the arch mage of Uman'Yiro. Seems logical.

Unfortunately, Izzy isn't around to give a response to this as she's still on the other side of the planet. So while I can't begin to measure up to her charm and wit, in my paltry way, I will attempt to speak on her behalf in the words that I imagine she would use:

"Ew! What-the-fuck?!? ... EWWWW!!!"

 

Second, it has always seemed quite odd to me that G2 and G3 were so secretive about the whole gods / demons being released event. That seemed like a rather enormous decision to make for a couple of adventuring groups, particularly where it just ended up being a majority rules decision amongst a few people at the end. Given the amount of abuse Malchus took with the Carter situation, I can only imagine what the consequences will be for the remaining G2 / G3 characters in arc 2.

Yeah, for the longest time, I was wondering about this, too. But over time, I began to see that some of the more influential characters on both teams were dead set on bringing the gods back. And so I think a lot of that secretiveness was due to those particular folks wanting to follow their own agenda. After all, "I know what's best for Theria, whether they like it or not." Right, Una?

 

Meanwhile, Marrek was the one who seemed the most adamant against bringing back the gods...until the time came to actually do something about. Then he suddenly took a page out of Malchus' book, cape-swished, and walked away. And that really shocked me. After all, Marrek likes to talk. And ya know...like an eclipse, the Blood Moon only lasts for a certain amount of time. So keeping everyone debating about the issue until the Blood Moon (and the window of opportunity to bring back the gods) was over...that really was an option. And I think it would have been hilarious.

"Okay guys, after four hours of debating about this, you've finally convinced me. Let's open the gate and release the gods. Oh! Well, gee...will you look at that. The Blood Moon is over. Well, darn it. I guess the gods will just have to wait until next time. Now let's see about that bottle of wine."

 

I guess I should mention that Una is still one my favourite characters. But her metaphorical heroic gold star has been irrevocably tarnished. This actually helps to flesh out the character and make her more believable as a person. And the applause goes to Izzy's brilliant portrayal of this very complicated woman. But even so, it's really hard to feel anything other than contempt for Una right now.






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